Inspired (predictably) by the Greens who have busy-bodism in their DNA, and backed by a petition which 157,000 New Zealanders signed and 4,990,000 did not, the government intends banning conversion therapy, that is the practise by some fringe Christian groups of endeavouring to talk someone with non-heterosexual impulses, into the straight and narrow.
One can easily imagine the distress some may feel when first awakening to their unorthodox leanings. Most of course take it in their stride, indeed nowadays they can be tiresomely celebratory about “coming out”.
Yet the irony of the proposed ban is that the biggest conversion therapy practitioner is the state. It provides numerous therapists for incarcerated sexual deviants and paedophiles. We constantly read of allegedly successful conversions in parole applications.
In the 1990s former ACT MP Deborah Coddington made an extensive study of paedophilia and concluded it was impossible to “convert” them from their yearning, no matter, as in many cases, she documented, they were eager to be rid of their craving and were ashamed of the harm they caused innocent children. Notwithstanding that appalling harm I feel sorry for them, their lives blighted by an urging seemingly in their DNA.
There’s another irony to this proposed ban, namely Christianity has been built on conversion, which is the reality of the church’s history over 2000 years.
It’s the sole function of missionaries whose sincerity I don’t question, to convert pagans in primitive societies to their superstition, or wrongdoers, or people who have fallen by the wayside and other vulnerable, desperate or gullible potential convertees. Personally, I find that hugely offensive, promoting an infantile mythology to troubled folk as a salve for their woes.
And that brings me to my principle concern, namely the implicit attack on individual freedom by the we-know-best state.
No-one is forced to subject themselves to conversion therapy but for whatever reason, some do and I accept the endeavour with its inevitable failure can be distressing for some in leaving them with a sense of overwhelming guilt.
But if we’re to allow the state to intervene in our liberties for our supposed greater good, then where to draw the line?
For example, the world’s most dangerous sport with an annual death count in the thousands, is mountaineering. To be consistent the government should ban it.
Most of us sometimes knowingly do things harmful to our well-being, whether over-imbibing, eating too much, slothful behaviour, or engage in the numerous risky sporting pursuits. Do we really want the busy-body state monitoring these things for our betterment?
A line must be drawn or unwittingly we will slip into a distasteful authoritarian society, forever justified as being for our greater benefit.
Dan Carter underwent conversion therapy, I believe and it saved many an All Black match
The moral of the story is go join a team of choice which practices your therapy requirements, but don’t try and make it compulsory to join.
Social engineering at schools has got a lot to answer for. It starts at Schools which lost their balance when they took away the teachers rights to discipline, manufacturing entitled upstarts and scaring males out of the profession.
I wondered what all these teacher days my kids have off were about, and its to discuss managing disruptive entitled upstarts that get no discipline. Go figure. And thats at least 5 days a year the kids are missing being educated. This is not a go at teachers, but the bureaucrats in Wellington who make the rules.
Dear Mr Samartian or may I call you Good,
About teacher’s “right to discipline” pupils.
I can assure you the full range of detentions, suspensions, time outs, parental interventions and finally expulsions remain available in our schools. However, I suspect you are referring to a teachers “right” to have a boy bend over and present his bottom for a jolly good whipping. This activity has always appealed to a certain type of middle aged, well bred chap. I wonder, Mr S, if you as an advocate of teenage boy spanking would consider enlightening us all into just why you regret the passing of this peculiar practice?
Looking forward to your reply
In answer to Richard’s comments below, it sounds like you were a victim of past discipline procedures; which I was. There were certainly teachers who abused their power and position, but this is not limited to teachers, and goes on to this day in various different forms.
Go and talk to ex male teachers, and you may understand what my point is. Males need males as role models (especially those who father is absent), and the bureaucrats in Wellington dont seem to get this…probably because they dont understand the need for balance and/or necessary risk males bring to the table.
This is off topic but the altruistic organ donors don’t always willingly give up their organs for cultural reasons but are willing to accept organs which is contradictory.
So, the Muslim woman who is being deported from Turkey to NZ is to be “de radicalized” on return here, is that not conversion therapy?
The implicit bias training programmes are, likewise, a form of conversion therapy. What is an attraction, a preference, for one sex anything other than an unconscious/implicit bias.
Very good point. And only highlights their hipocracy again. Homo sexual, cross gender, no gender = good. Radical Islam = bad enough to do anything we like.
Answer… yes she should be encouraged to deradicalise and yes people should be encouraged to embrace the sexuality they were born to. Encouraged , not forced.
As my comments suggest I believe we are heading towards communistic leanings at 100 kms/hr. There are many examples of this and the minute the state is BANNING things then you are on a slippery slope. I doubt anyone would deny Cindy is a communist ( her credentials are open for all to see) therefore her chosen path will tend that way.
I don’t have a major problem with the state offering its opinion to those who practice Conversion Therapy but my hackles rise when compulsion comes into play.
Here’s the hipocracy. Cindy wants to ban Conversion Therapy (a last chance option for some families) but is silent on the crimes against humanity being committed by her bed fellow the CCP. Human rights trampled in Hong Kong, reeducation compounds and genocides based on religious belief. And from Cindy — SILENCE.
Time to revive the dancing cossacks Muldoon used to great effect.
Mr Edge, I agree that left wing governments usually drift towards authoritarian control. Time will tell if this one will – the signs aren’t encouraging.
However my friend; please look up Communism in the dictionary. Jacinda is no communist. To be so she must believe in transferring ownership of all land and other assets into communal ownership ( central government ownership in practice) Capitalism and entrepreneurship are banned and single party government enforced, almost always by the military.
Jacinda, is barely a socialist. She is in fact a disappointment to the Left here having proven to be very cautious in economic and social policy. She’s leading a cabinet very short on talent (witness Fatty Woods becoming Minister of Everything) and is incapable of being transformational in any direction.
Re the CCP. Good or bad, they are communist in name only having embraced capitalism and entrepreneurship.
Putin’s Russia is closer to fascism now.
In fact there are only 3 communist governments left on the planet. They’re all basket cases run by nut jobs. Venezuela, Nth Korea and Cuba.
Jacinda bares no resemblance to Chubby Kim the 3rd.
Well bugger me. Victor Borge was right after all and well before his time.
Good article, Bob.
-The government doesn’t like homosexuality being promoted as a sexual disorder (by treating it as such) via ‘conversion therapy’. It’s a functional insult to gays (in their eyes).
-I fully support the conversion of tribal societies to Christianity, when the tribal society is brutal (and in turn mentally sick) in ways that are hard to believe. And countless were. Back in the day, tribal people’s were called ‘savages’ not because old-world Europeans were pompous prejudice prats, but because tribal socialites WERE in fact savage.
Christianity can be a good halfway-house (cultural control system), for until savage cultures reach enlightened perfection, like me.
Coincidentally this came up at a recent work outing (no pun intended) where one of the staff is a seventh day adventist. I’m in Australia so this only applies to the Australian legislation, but, as written the legislation is absurdly heavy handed. Seeking jail sentences and punative fines for things as broad as “..Any conversation which…”
Seems to invoke a sense of vengance on Churches for frowning on Homosexuality.
Personally I think religions should steer clear of matters sexual and concentrate on matters spiritual.
Not every question requires a legal or legislative response and having PC Claude and her size 15 Leather Jackboots tromping all over the Church may excite some of the breatheren but won’t actually do much for people who are struggling to come to terms with their orientation.
The government conversion therapy is alive and well. Only good news is publicised. Nothing that may tarnish the image is allowed. It’s good news week every week. The bullies are in control.
Sorry, off topic (but does feature homosexuals) the member for Tijuana has been pinged for blatant lies on official documents.
” Green MP Ricardo Menendez March tried not once, but twice, to get an emergency spot in managed isolation, the first time as a “critical health service” and the second time as “required for national security”
Yes, i saw this too. Once an entitled sponger, always an entitled sponger
Hhaaaahahaa “The member for Tijauna” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2EIBU9khEU&ab_channel=ltclassics
The present Police Commisioner Andrew Coster clearly has been ‘ sanitised’. Off topic a bit, but I think Simon Bridges and other Nat pollies are spot on. This guy was clearly a political appointment…he is ‘;anti’ police chasing criminals, ‘anti’ having police properly armed to protect themselves, has stopped detection of commercial cannabis operations,cancelled police recruit training….the list goes on. The cops on the street are horrified that he keeps bowing to socialist propaganda….and labour weakness towards criminals and justice.
Yes he is the epitome of the theory of Woke.
If you have a close look at Liberal US states you will see law and order failing. Google US 10 worst homelessness. A self created mess because they encourage/do nothing to move them. Some states pushing to house these people for nothing are seeing an influx for obvious reasons.
Biden latest Socialist move uses Covid to pass 2 Trillion of spending with 100s of millions of this going to rescue liberal states.
The US has no idea what is has just unleashed.
Democrats are actually bringing pressure to bear on media channels who challenge the left messages being espoused daily. Really dangerous stuff.
The NZ Police Association have been pushing hard for all Officers to be armed (rather than carrying them in their cars as is the case now). Their argument for being armed is based on keeping their members safe from increasingly armed criminals. This seems entirely valid. And yet….
In the USA, police are always armed and always car-chase. Yet they have 4 times as many Officers killed by gun shot or in car chases than the equivalent here.
American Lawmen have been armed since well before Wyat Earp packed his six shooter.
It doesn’t seem to have worked out that well for them.
Richard A valid yet vexed point You will never know what the death toll would be from not being armed or not persuing.
Your stats do point however to why the police shoot first and ask questions later.
What would you do ??.
A very large percentage of Americans are legally armed and no doubt all the criminals are. Good luck unwinding that.
It would appear a large number of crims here are armed also.
Hi Richard. I’m not an advocate for arming all frontline Police. However, they need full access to firearms..which is different to carrying firearms. I realise a lot of officers already carry/have access to weapons, however I believe all active Police should have immediate access..and further, I think it was the current Commissioner who put a stop to the new ‘task force’ which had been only operating a short time..you may be able to confirm that.
You may be able to comment on my thoughts re using Police for covid duties…it seems clear that homicides and serious assaults have increased hugely in the last 12 months, and it appears to me that driving habits of NZ’ers are atrocious. I can’t believe that this govt won’t support new recruit courses ( apart from 1 for ‘special people’)as they have promised to increase ACTUAL officer numbers. Which they’re not doing. Why would Police, already short on the ground, be tied up doing bloody road blacks toi satisfy arderns ego when the Army could have been utilised..?
In Gilbert and Sullivan’s Pirates of Penznace there’s a line from The Policeman’s Lot is not a Happy One which always comes to mind: “When the Coster’s finished jumping on his mother”
You can imagine the titters in the audience from the audience at the high school production!
Thoughtful Sir Bob. Interesting that the Maori were considered one of the most savage races ever encountered by early anthropologists. Government intervention is rife now everywhere. But when promulgated by the “kind” Jacinda the sheeple will not object.
Maori were indeed blood thirsty amongst the tribes with cannibalism rife. The arrival of Europeans post James Cook and the subsequent Treaty ( not signed by all Maori ) didn’t change too much viz the barbaric Maori Wars and Consequent wars with the British. Given that Maori could not read nor write its amazing that history is being reframed to sanitise some of the intertribal conflicts and pushing the mantra that all Europeans were somehow bad.
Well said, Sir Bob.
157,000 for, 4.9 million against, however because we are ever so democratic, we, the
Government will decide the outcome.
It’s only fair, and kind.
However, you appear to have pulled a punch in your final paragraph.
.”..or unwittingly we will slip into a distasteful authoritarian society…”
Are we not already well past the halfway line on that score ??
Bloody right on Bob. Not much else to say.